>> i'm not sure how you judge that, charlie. i think it's up to the candidates to make it a good or bad debate and i think romney did a pretty good job and obama did a very poor job. show i guess that makes it a wash. i'm not sure about mike murphy's point about it being a reset though i suspect he's right. but i would pick up on josh tyrangiel's point about the kerry analogy. absolutely right, i think it's a striking analogy but guess what, john kerry lost by the same amount he was trailing before that debate. so that gets to the question whether debates really have, whether they really matter that much. and i went back and looked at every debate and every poll before and after since 1960, and the only candidate who gained substantially from debates, jerry ford who blew the biggest debate night of his career. so i'm skeptical, particularly with a rather small group of persuadeables, even though mike murphy may be right i'm skeptical this is really going to change the playing field a lot. >> rose: mike murphy, how would you conv